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rootofnewtI think a lot of people have the need of guided ritual in their lives. I don't really have that need. I take nostalgic comfort in the hymns of Protestant churches (both primitive and Liturgical) and in the rituals of the Episcopal church, but I take far more comfort in just walking through the woods or sitting on a rock.
Talking with my husband, I see that he has far more of a need for some kind of regular, guided, spiritual ritual in his life than I do. I'd like to support him, yet we don't really want to go to any sort of religious service--we're simple too scientific and cynical to do hypocritical things like that. At the same time, he's really feeling the lack of any specific set ritual. Maybe it's part of his Roman Catholic upbringing, maybe it's more.
I've offered to pay more attention to the neopagan Celtic sabbats and the full moons. I already do celebrate most of them with food, decor, or other traditions, but I'm not one to meditate upon or pray to any specific deity. I do not believe nor disbelieve in any deity--I acknowlege the potential existence of them all and believe that every one must find zir own path to the next level--whatever that may or may not be.
So many people feel the need for black and white, for clearcut definitions of what is and is not. The thing is, as we learn more and more about the way our universe works, we learn that we know very, very little and that what we thought was, is not. There are no absolutes. Life is many shades and none at all. I take comfort in this, but I'm one of those people who sees a divinity inherent within chaos. When I dance in the autumn leaves, my mind is twisting in fractal iterations, turning this way and that, predictable and wild.
To paraphrase a professor of![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
flynnk (and he can correct me on this), a true scientist cannot be an atheist, for that is an absolute point of view and without proof of the non-existence, we cannot claim that there is no God, just as we cannot claim that there is one without proof. Succinctly, agnosticism is a more valid scientific spiritual path than either atheism or devout religious fervor.
I've offered to help motivate boy to attend events or sessions at the local Tibetan Buddhist center. I've offered to go to the local Unitarian pagan gatherings, though I dislike participating in casting circles as much as I dislike participating in the Eucharist. I've offered to take him to Episcopal Evensong. Our own beliefs lie much more in line with Daoistic thought, with the balance and perseverance of Buddhism.
It's in my nature to recognize patterns. My spiritual needs are met in this. I am constantly aware of the give and take around me, of the flow and the way everything is interconnected, hence my ability to take in a walk in the woods as a spiritual salve. It's also one of the reasons I can be enthralled by the power of tornadoes, while acknowleging the horror loss of life brings. I see death as part of life--a necessary part--but that doesn't mean I don't mourn for what is lost.
I think a lot of people in my generation feel a need for something. I don't fault anyone for seeking it where they may, but I think a lot of people are looking in the wrong places and are putting too much strain on themselves. I do wonder if the plethora of options we have doesn't lead to false expectations and if it doesn't also contribute to a feeling of failure or loss where neither is necessarily present.
A hundred years ago, I'd be expected to be a (house)wife and mother. While getting married and having children were silent expectations, my options for living beyond that were wide open. My husband sometimes expresses frustration at the options and wonders if he wouldn't have been happier just getting a job doing what his father and his father's father did, be it plumbing or pharmacy or farming. Of course, that expectation wasn't even there for him, since our parents were Baby Boomers and were expected to succeed in ways their parents could not. As children of Baby Boomers, we're expected to take advantage of our good fortune and exceed all expectations.
All of the options and all of the labor-saving devices common to our era give us a lot more free time than our predecessors had. Incessant worrying and fear seems to breed depression and while I recognize depression as a valid illness, I think that a lot of it could be avoided if people would actually think about the thought patterns that cause them distress and learn ways to manage those thoughts and to create new paradigms. Some people need medication, others need therapy, but I think far more just need centering and grounding. To that end, it's easy to see why yoga, tai chi, and qi gong are gaining popularity. People need balance.
I think that a lot of people just need to relax and find their own path. Don't become bogged down by the prospects of eventualities you cannot yet fathom. Live life for the present. Sure, it's good to have a contingency plan--education is wonderful, work experience is excellent--but don't become obsessed with the little things.
Boy often wonders how our parents did it--working and worrying and raising children. He gets frustrated when I tell him people just live and do what they need to do. I told him yesterday that they got through long days with little sleep by using caffeine and he got a bit aggravated, but it's true. Hard work, diligence, love, and never expecting that you will or will not be in the same place tomorrow or next week or the next year or decade. You hope, but you don't count on anything.
My path is not your path, but my path is free of psychotherapy and my path leaves me content and happy. May your path help you find the same.
Talking with my husband, I see that he has far more of a need for some kind of regular, guided, spiritual ritual in his life than I do. I'd like to support him, yet we don't really want to go to any sort of religious service--we're simple too scientific and cynical to do hypocritical things like that. At the same time, he's really feeling the lack of any specific set ritual. Maybe it's part of his Roman Catholic upbringing, maybe it's more.
I've offered to pay more attention to the neopagan Celtic sabbats and the full moons. I already do celebrate most of them with food, decor, or other traditions, but I'm not one to meditate upon or pray to any specific deity. I do not believe nor disbelieve in any deity--I acknowlege the potential existence of them all and believe that every one must find zir own path to the next level--whatever that may or may not be.
So many people feel the need for black and white, for clearcut definitions of what is and is not. The thing is, as we learn more and more about the way our universe works, we learn that we know very, very little and that what we thought was, is not. There are no absolutes. Life is many shades and none at all. I take comfort in this, but I'm one of those people who sees a divinity inherent within chaos. When I dance in the autumn leaves, my mind is twisting in fractal iterations, turning this way and that, predictable and wild.
To paraphrase a professor of
flynnk (and he can correct me on this), a true scientist cannot be an atheist, for that is an absolute point of view and without proof of the non-existence, we cannot claim that there is no God, just as we cannot claim that there is one without proof. Succinctly, agnosticism is a more valid scientific spiritual path than either atheism or devout religious fervor.I've offered to help motivate boy to attend events or sessions at the local Tibetan Buddhist center. I've offered to go to the local Unitarian pagan gatherings, though I dislike participating in casting circles as much as I dislike participating in the Eucharist. I've offered to take him to Episcopal Evensong. Our own beliefs lie much more in line with Daoistic thought, with the balance and perseverance of Buddhism.
It's in my nature to recognize patterns. My spiritual needs are met in this. I am constantly aware of the give and take around me, of the flow and the way everything is interconnected, hence my ability to take in a walk in the woods as a spiritual salve. It's also one of the reasons I can be enthralled by the power of tornadoes, while acknowleging the horror loss of life brings. I see death as part of life--a necessary part--but that doesn't mean I don't mourn for what is lost.
I think a lot of people in my generation feel a need for something. I don't fault anyone for seeking it where they may, but I think a lot of people are looking in the wrong places and are putting too much strain on themselves. I do wonder if the plethora of options we have doesn't lead to false expectations and if it doesn't also contribute to a feeling of failure or loss where neither is necessarily present.
A hundred years ago, I'd be expected to be a (house)wife and mother. While getting married and having children were silent expectations, my options for living beyond that were wide open. My husband sometimes expresses frustration at the options and wonders if he wouldn't have been happier just getting a job doing what his father and his father's father did, be it plumbing or pharmacy or farming. Of course, that expectation wasn't even there for him, since our parents were Baby Boomers and were expected to succeed in ways their parents could not. As children of Baby Boomers, we're expected to take advantage of our good fortune and exceed all expectations.
All of the options and all of the labor-saving devices common to our era give us a lot more free time than our predecessors had. Incessant worrying and fear seems to breed depression and while I recognize depression as a valid illness, I think that a lot of it could be avoided if people would actually think about the thought patterns that cause them distress and learn ways to manage those thoughts and to create new paradigms. Some people need medication, others need therapy, but I think far more just need centering and grounding. To that end, it's easy to see why yoga, tai chi, and qi gong are gaining popularity. People need balance.
I think that a lot of people just need to relax and find their own path. Don't become bogged down by the prospects of eventualities you cannot yet fathom. Live life for the present. Sure, it's good to have a contingency plan--education is wonderful, work experience is excellent--but don't become obsessed with the little things.
Boy often wonders how our parents did it--working and worrying and raising children. He gets frustrated when I tell him people just live and do what they need to do. I told him yesterday that they got through long days with little sleep by using caffeine and he got a bit aggravated, but it's true. Hard work, diligence, love, and never expecting that you will or will not be in the same place tomorrow or next week or the next year or decade. You hope, but you don't count on anything.
My path is not your path, but my path is free of psychotherapy and my path leaves me content and happy. May your path help you find the same.
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no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 02:31 pm (UTC)he's singing anyway--why not try shapenote singing? there is a pattern and a form and hey! singing. some people use it as a form of worship; others really just want to sing. it really is what you bring to it.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 02:36 pm (UTC)Also, he has 40 hours of work a week, class M-W-F for an hour, a two hour lab Wednesday night, band practice Sunday night for a couple hours, and yoga Monday evening. He has homework, reading, and labwork for the class, along with helping to keep a household with me. He's a bit afraid to take on any commitments for fear of burn out, but I think he'd like to explore other things.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 03:00 pm (UTC)*cry*
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 03:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 03:06 pm (UTC)(and i don't get any appliances for recruiting, truly ;-) !)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 02:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 02:43 pm (UTC)The last few days I've been having a "chicken or the egg" conversation with myself: Are my internal conversation patterns responsible for brain chemical shifts or are brain chemical shifts responsible for my internal conversation patterns? Most of the time I believe that my conversations have causation, but there are times (like the last few days) when I'm convinced it's the other way around. I know how to manage and interrupt my thought patterns, but sometimes there's a noticeable shift, like a light switch flipping, and everything seems "better".
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 02:59 pm (UTC)I love a little of both. The private stuff, being out of nature, is absolutely central to my spiritual life, but I also seem to need and want some ritual, especially in things that seem to involve more than one person -- weddings, namings, housewarmings, whatever, all seem to want group celebration, with a little ritual or a lot, in my spiritual world.
Talking with my husband, I see that he has far more of a need for some kind of regular, guided, spiritual ritual in his life than I do. I'd like to support him, yet we don't really want to go to any sort of religious service--we're simple too scientific and cynical to do hypocritical things like that. At the same time, he's really feeling the lack of any specific set ritual. Maybe it's part of his Roman Catholic upbringing, maybe it's more.
I think growing up in church (what a friend called, regarding Grace Cathdral, "smells and bells") is a big part of it for me.
I've offered to pay more attention to the neopagan Celtic sabbats and the full moons. I already do celebrate most of them with food, decor, or other traditions, but I'm not one to meditate upon or pray to any specific deity. I do not believe nor disbelieve in any deity--I acknowlege the potential existence of them all and believe that every one must find zir own path to the next level--whatever that may or may not be.
That's my theology in a nutshell. I don't quite "get" that there are specific dieties with specific names and needs and rituals. I can't imagine one being so limited.
Succinctly, agnosticism is a more valid scientific spiritual path than either atheism or devout religious fervor.
"I too can see the stars on a desert night, and feel them. But do I see less or more? The vastness of the heavens stretches my imagination - stuck on this carousel my little eye can catch one-million-year-old light. A vast pattern - of which I am a part... What is the pattern or the meaning or the why? It does not do harm to the mystery to know a little more about it. For far more marvelous is the truth than any artists of the past imagined it. Why do the poets of the present not speak of it? What men are poets who can speak of Jupiter if he were a man, but if he is an immense spinning sphere of methane and ammonia must be silent." -- Richard Feynman, in a footnote in The Feynman Lectures on Physics
I've offered to help motivate boy to attend events or sessions at the local Tibetan Buddhist center. I've offered to go to the local Unitarian pagan gatherings, though I dislike participating in casting circles as much as I dislike participating in the Eucharist. I've offered to take him to Episcopal Evensong.
Does he need it to be shared with you?
I do wonder if the plethora of options we have doesn't lead to false expectations and if it doesn't also contribute to a feeling of failure or loss where neither is necessarily present.
Check out some of the Wiccan and other Neo-Pagan communities. Young people, especially, seem to crave something that can be described and named and taught and mastered, something outside of themselves but not tangible.
Incessant worrying and fear seems to breed depression and while I recognize depression as a valid illness, I think that a lot of it could be avoided if people would actually think about the thought patterns that cause them distress and learn ways to manage those thoughts and to create new paradigms.
Cognitive therapy is related to this. Not everyone can do it alone, and some just need a boost out of the rut, I think, with therapy or chemicals or 12-step groups, then can move on.
Thank you for this. Got me thinking, and I've been meaning to write something along these lines lately. I'm going to set my part of this aside to expand on later.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 03:49 pm (UTC)Does he need it to be shared with you?
No, but I need to kick him in the ass to do what is good for him. It's our dynamic. ;)
And he would like to share it, but we don't share everything. Obviously, my spiritual path is different from his. I couldn't do half the stuff he does without giggling and exploding a cow. I encourage him in anything he wants to do, even if I don't share the desire to do it and even when I don't share he same view. I poke him when he's waffling about yoga (it's really *good* for him to go) and I poke him when he's stressing over something inconsequential. To quote another view, he's a very typical Libra--constantly pondering the consequences of actions and their results and the resulting reactions instead of just acting.
So, no, we don't have to share this, but I will very likely need to help him *find* the experiences he wants so badly and I'll need to help him realize just what his options are and to actually *pick* an option to explore without worrying about the consequences of picking that option or not picking another. I may need to accompany him. I don't mind, I have all the time in the world and I enjoy spending it with him.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 03:51 pm (UTC)Or a cat.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 03:13 pm (UTC)...and I'm headed into a heavy analytical/theoretical world, determined to show that these kind of paths are valid and true and beautiful...
thank you for reminding me of the wonderment of seeking your own way.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 04:51 pm (UTC)Sorry, I've just got to point out that this is not right. See Dawkins' famous quote. I can't prove, and don't want to, that at this very moment the person in the next cube to me (whom I can't see) isn't turning green and then blue at a cycle of 12 times a second, and will stop the moment I look around the cubicle wall; but that doesn't mean that I have to take that possibility into account, and bring it up whenever I refer to that person. Given all the evidence I have about him, it is far more scientifically valid to be atheist about his green-blue color cycling than to say "I can't prove that he doesn't." There are so many things to be agnostic about; once I started, I should never be able to stop.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 05:36 pm (UTC)Keep in mind that I am synaesthetic. For all you know, some people *do* appear that way to me, or they smell that way or I hear them as blue-green 12x/second cycling. There are certainly stranger things that that.
I don't deny an atheist's faith in the absolute, but keep in mind that I base my views on physics as we can now comprehend them--there are no absolutes. You're welcome to discount physics--we're learning all the time just how wrong our concepts of physics are. I also accept the possibility that there are absolutes, but I give that no more weight than I give the possibility that there is a God, that I perceive grass as a shimmery tone around C#minor, or that I might wake up tomorrow to find my sock drawer empty. There are different likehoods of all of those things coming to pass, but I can deal with the results of any of them without having any epiphanies. I accept them as they are and as they are not.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 06:18 pm (UTC)I don't need faith in the absolute to be an atheist any more than I need it to put my coffee cup down on the desk every day without first putting down a couple of towels underneath in case all the atoms in the desk spontaneously decide to rearrange themselves and let my coffee cup fall through. Science assures us that there is certainly enough empty space in the desk to make a hole big enough for my coffee cup, should it be properly arranged; both science and philosophy assure us that they cannot prove that such a thing will not happen in the next five minutes. And if it makes you happy to keep these possibilities in mind, feel free; I think they are neat thought experiments that keep alive our sense of wonder & possibility in the world. But what I take exception to is your statement that "agnosticism is a more valid scientific spiritual path": it sounds to me as though you are saying that it would be more scientific to put down the towels. And with that I disagree. I'm going to use dictionary.com's briefest description of the scientific method:
Scientific method, the method employed in exact science and consisting of: (a) Careful and abundant observation and experiment. (b) generalization of the results into formulated ``Laws'' and statements.
Careful and abundant observation and experiment, as well as reading other people's research, lead me to formulate the statement that the possibility of the table's spontaneously rearranging itself to my coffee cup's detriment is vanishingly, vanishingly small; so small that I need not take it into account. It is still possible. But I am not discounting physics when I ignore that possibility. And I am being just as scientific when I ignore the possibility of the existence of any or all gods.
I started this?
Date: 2004-10-06 10:46 pm (UTC)Firstly, I believe that I conveyed the quote to Jos during a conversation that explored some of the topics discussed here. It did not originate with one of my professors, but rather with a rather famous scientist, who I of course do not remember. The general gist of it is properly reflected in Jos's piece.
Anyway, I think the argument comes down to how hard it is to prove a negative; it is very difficult to prove that something does not exist. If you acknowledge the possibility, however remote, that their might be a God, much as you acknowledge the possiblity that the table might start playing tricks with your coffee, then in my view, that is an agnostic position.
An atheist is sure. Certainity scares me. Too often the people who I detest the most (say Orthodox *anything*) are very, very, sure.
Of course, just because you are agnostic does not mean that you have to acknowledge Pascal's Wager. You don't have to do anything about it. You don't have to put the towels down. You don't have to go dance with snakes, wear a funny hat (what the hell is it with all religions and funny hats?), or do anything else. I certainly don't.
I do however, believe in something of a reverse Pascal's wadger. I believe that ethics and standards of behavior are independently deriviable things that do not originate in any supernatural experience. Therefore, living ethically is the right thing to do. If one lives ethically, and lives a good life, one should be covering all of one's bases. If there is a heaven, then if I do the things I'm going to do anyway, I should be good to go.
Of course there are those that believe you have to swear fealty to a particular religion, but that doesn't make any logical sense, and seems more easily discarded. The general notion of the existance of God is seperated from the various Biblical requirements.
In the end, this discussion should prove meaningless, as it should not have any consequences on what one actually does. Mostly it's about perspective and being open to ideas of any stripe. I think as I've gotten a wee bit older, I've become more and more willing to listen to new and different ideas.
Unless the idea is Creationism. That's a capital offense.
Re: I started this?
Date: 2004-10-07 02:37 pm (UTC)I last checked my bank balance a couple days ago. I can't prove that some kind soul (perhaps from Nigeria) didn't deposit ten thousand dollars in it since I last checked; that would violate no laws of physics. Furthermore, even if I could remember my password to get online & check my balance, I can't prove that someone didn't give me the extra money AND the bank didn't make a mistake in reporting my balance online. In a very real sense, there is no way to prove what the balance in my bank account is, since they don't have the dollar bills sitting around anywhere; it's just what they & I agree it is.
Nonetheless, I am not agnostic about how much money I have in my bank account. If you ask me whether I have more than ten thousand dollars in it, I don't say "I don't think so, but I admit there's a possibility that I might." I say "No. Alas." If you ask me whether there is a god, I don't say "I don't think so, but I admit there's a possibility that there might be." I say "No."
Of course there are those that believe you have to swear fealty to a particular religion, but that doesn't make any logical sense, and seems more easily discarded.
And I think your argument gets a little hand-wavy here. I don't see why it makes any less sense to believe that you have to swear fealty to a particular religion than it does to believe that there is a god in general. By what you said before, if there's the slightest chance that it might be true that you have to swear fealty to a particular religion, shouldn't you be agnostic towards that possibility? Or towards the possibility that you have to swear fealty to any of them? Or that you have to swear fealty to all of them, mutually exclusive as they are? This is why I can't be agnostic; there are too many things for me to be agnostic about.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 06:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 07:52 pm (UTC)We are the lost generation, the roads have all been charted, the wild lands left tamed, there are no more seas to sail.
We are the stranded generation, nowhere to go, no way to get there. Our parents burned our boats.
We are the depressed generation, no new dreams to live. Everything possible has been exploited and our art is all reruns.
We are the recycled generation, what was before is here again. It will come tomorrow as well.
We are the lost. We are the denied. We are the next step in the downward spiral. We are the hollow, the all together misunderstood and irrelevant. Our gods made celluloid, cardboard and pigment, then dust then lost. Our rituals grasp at the past, forever slipping finger by finger and mote by mote, losing coherency and validity.
What our parents had, we cannot. What our parents wished for, we cannot. What our parents hoped for, we cannot. Where our parents lived, we cannot. Where our parents worked, we cannot. Where our parents worshipped, we cannot. Where our parents shopped, we cannot. What our parents drove, we cannot. What they saw at the drive in, we cannot. What they watched on television, we cannot. What music moved their souls, we cannot. What possessed them to strive, we cannot. This is the disconnect, this is the denial of everything that came before, this is the turning away, and we cannot.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 08:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 08:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-06 08:57 pm (UTC)('75, me.)
Ennui
Date: 2004-10-06 10:59 pm (UTC)We have jobs, and we probably (baring the results of the next election) really have to worry about losing them, or about falling into extreme poverty. We do not face some of the obstacles of generations past, although we need more caffinee, and in some ways our lives lack challenge. For all the free time this seems to free up for us, we always seem to be too busy to get everything done, or to meet those personal goals (working out, personal projects, more time with the SO, etc.). It's an odd state of challenge without really being a challenge.
In some ways, this has allegedly followed our whole generation (oh, generation X or Y or whatever). I've never really bought that; I think much the same feelings have plagued those of our rough age (+/- a decade or so) for a long time.
I'm angry. I hate my job. I hate my coworkers. I hate that I've ended up doing something that I hate. I hate how much time it takes. I hate DC traffic. I hate my coworkers. Yes, I said that one twice.
I think one approach to this is to seek some greater meaning for life, some of the passion, the goals we had when we were just a bit younger. The fire in one's eyes saying we can change the world, shape new things, grow up to be President, now dimmed by the wisdom of just a few years. We are all just cogs in a machine of some sort, turning round and round and round, grinding up some, raising others to new heights before bringing them back down.
Anger often brings depression or rides the back of it. That I know. That depression tends to hit many people at about this age, and that depression in DC seems to be epidemic, I also know. Maybe's it's in the water with the lead or the bacteria.
I don't know the answer. I don't think I've found my path. I work hard, try to play hard, and try to get through. Having someone to take the path with you helps, perhaps makes it bearable. One thing to do is not to fear change. When an opportunity presents itself, take it, even if it shakes the Hell out of you, that's the only way to move forward. And ultimately we have to move forward, or there really is no point.
In the meantime, perhaps I should do yoga or tai chi.
Re: Ennui
Date: 2004-10-07 08:28 am (UTC)I'm finding the purpose of having some mystical faith. When everything else falls apart, if you have faith in something, in the chaos you can anchor yourself to that. So at least there's one thing that seems stable. It may only be a piece of driftwood in a churning sea, but...hey, at least you got that piece of driftwood.
It's a tricky thing, though, to find the right faith. Too many of your typical religions do an excessive amount of brain washing and indoctrination, and are not comfortable with questions. For the intelligent and those of us who are fierce about being our unique selves (whatever that may be) it's distasteful to shack up with a faith that's going to try to shape us into something we're not. Fortunately, your options are not limited to Gods and their particular rules. Faith in nature. Faith in the unknown mysteries that make physics work. Although I don't totally understand it, the way atheists faithfully believe in nothing must do something for them. There are no absolutes, but I'm finding sometimes it's nice to pretend there is as a psychological construct to get through hard times.
If there is one true absolute, it's that there are no absolutes. One might choose to worship change and have faith in whatever that absolute thing is that constantly drives change.
Re: Ennui
Date: 2004-10-07 08:35 am (UTC)Today, there are two things falling into that category: carrots and oatmeal. I expect to see an appropriate sacrifice soon.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-07 07:21 am (UTC)one of my thinking patterns, however, is to be a pedant. this being so...
we're expected to take advantage of our good fortune and exceed all expectations.
you can't possibly be expected to exceed expectations.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-07 08:15 am (UTC)Lucky you.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-07 04:01 pm (UTC)granted that makes it their logical inconsistency and not yours, but it still is one :-)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-07 09:49 am (UTC)There's a lot to be said for balance, and changing your life to fit the way you are. We are so often pushed into expectations and other peoples' patterns that we get frustrated, horrified, and lost as to who we are and what we're doing. We fail, because we don't realize that we do choose our own paths depending on our options and our environments.
I like the idea of following seasonal paths, and the sabbats and such. There's a definite rhythm to life, and I personally am very sensative to that rhythm. I often fall off the rhythm and end up screwy.
We are all so different in levels of acceptance of things, and I do think therapy is good for those who can use it. I can, because I still constantly question my choices and don't have a good grasp of what is right for me, and I need that guidance.
I also think boredom contributes largely to depression, and can even cause it. When we'd have farms and gardens, and harvests, and knit our own socks and make our own soap, and all that time-intensive stuff, we were likely not so bored. We sang songs. We did not tootle on the Internet and occupy our minds with tv. We were creative and connected on a very human, very carbon-based level, and I think being out of touch with that has harmed our well-being (although I'm damn glad I don't have to knit my own socks or do my laundry by hand, though I'm happy I have that as an option). It's a give-and-take situation and I imagine depression was prevelant then too, but manifested itself differently and was treated differently. This comes from someone who acknowledges the biological aspect of the disorder as well as environmental.
Anyway, excellent post. It looks like it made a lot of us think. :)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-07 01:44 pm (UTC)My sentiments exactly ;o)
Date: 2004-10-07 06:14 pm (UTC)I just started going to Nature Spirit (the earth-centered group on grounds) and have found myself to be disappointed and uncomfortable. As you said, I dislike participating in casting circles as much as I dislike participating in the Eucharist. I feel the same and when they "call the directions" at the inception of each meeting and send them on their way at the end, I am uncomfortable. I'm not wiccan. I don't call the corners. And, I feel, the elements are with me always. I don't have the authority to call them or send them away, nor would I want to.
And you spoke my sentiments again later, I am constantly aware of the give and take around me, of the flow and the way everything is interconnected, hence my ability to take in a walk in the woods as a spiritual salve. I never feel happier than when i'm hiking in the woods or laying on the grass and basking in the sun. I don't need rituals or to call the spirits or anything like that. I just let the wonder of the world sweep me into itself and fill me with comfort and joy.
After accepting my pagan heart, I thought, "How am I going to fit the world and my moral beliefs into this?" Having spent so much time as a Christian, trying to fit things together and make them work for me, I was incredibly uptight about that.
But now, I am a great deal more open and hold my beliefs and let others have theirs. I don't feel at all in conflict with anyone (unless they try to tell me that i'm wrong) and the moral and religious creeds of others don't bother me. My beliefs may not seem to fit so well into the modern world, but for me, it just calls for greater flexibility and an acceptance that wisdom and understanding will come with time. And sometimes, even time will not reveal everything.
Anyways, I just wanted to say that what you wrote really struck a resonant chord in me and I appreciated your words. :)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-07 08:04 pm (UTC)I'm a cynical optimist.
Your beliefs sound very, very close to mine -- take a look at this entry and its comments (http://www.livejournal.com/users/sunnydale47/52928.html), in which I mused about being a deep agnostic and a classical skeptic. (I use the phrase "classical skeptic" because the dogmatic atheists have co-opted the word "skeptic" -- and they're anything but skeptical!)
I've offered to go to the local Unitarian pagan gatherings
TJMC's Nature Spirit (http://www.uucharlottesville.org/groupsorgs.asp#nature) CUUPS chapter?
though I dislike participating in casting circles as much as I dislike participating in the Eucharist.
I feel exactly the same way. I've participated with UU pagan groups off and on, and although my spirituality is completely nature-centered, the god and goddess stuff rubs me the wrong way. This is one paragraph from a credo statement I wrote in 1998 for a class called Building Your Own Theology (http://www.uua.org/re/currmap/byotIandII.html), and updated two or three years ago: Talking with my husband, I see that he has far more of a need for some kind of regular, guided, spiritual ritual in his life than I do. I'd like to support him, yet we don't really want to go to any sort of religious service--we're simple too scientific and cynical to do hypocritical things like that.
Have you ever tried going to the regular Sunday services at TJMC (http://www.uucharlottesville.org/)? I was searching for a religious community where I could be comfortable all my adult life, but when I found the Unitarian Universalists 19 years ago, I knew I'd found what I was looking for. We don't use what UUs jokingly call "the G word" (God), and I'm comfortable with the generalities we do hear occasionally, like "spirit of life." UUs all have very different beliefs -- the glue that holds us together as a religion is not a common belief, but common values (http://www.uua.org/aboutuua/principles.html).
The elements of the service (http://www.uucharlottesville.org/info/newcomers.asp) would fulfill your husband's need for ritual without offending your skeptical agnostic sensibilities in the least. If you've never been to a UU service (as opposed to the CUUPS group, which is very different), give it a try. If you went once, you might want to try it again -- UU services often vary widely, and if you went on a Sunday when the service was an atypical one you may find it entirely different another time.
Obviously, what worked for me may not work at all for the two of you. But many couples with different religious backgrounds or differing religious needs have found a UU congregation an ideal compromise where both can be comfortable.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-07 08:37 pm (UTC)Furthermore, the thought of getting up before noon on Sunday offends my sensibilities. ;) If I'm up that early on a Sunday, I'd better be in the mountains, having fun. Being cooped up inside is stifling, especially when the crowd is congenial. And yes, growing up in extremely close, friendly, social Protestant congregations has left me rather biased against them for myself. I don't fault anyone who does enjoy that type of experience. It's just not the kind of taste I like in my mouth.
I was talking about the local Naturespirit group. So far, I've been on their mailing list for two years and their gatherings seem to center around food and incense/soap making. As someone with severe allergies, this does not appeal. I prefer lectures and book groups. If I wanted potlucks, I'd go to the local Bi/Lesbian Womyn Gathering. ;)
I think
Boy is far more intrigued by the lectures and meditation groups at the local Buddhist centers (http://www.cvillebuddhist.org/). As you can see, Charlottesville has no shortage of spiritual groups of all flavors (http://monticello.avenue.org/religion.htm").
And yes, I'm a skeptic and a cynic in the Classical aspect, certainly not the modern, though I do sometimes let my biases get the best of me. I try to avoid dogma when I can, even my own personal ones. It clouds my mind.
no subject
Date: 2004-10-07 09:00 pm (UTC)Ah ... yes, that in and of itself would certainly eliminate UU services from consideration. :-)
I try to avoid dogma when I can, even my own personal ones. It clouds my mind.
That's why I say I'm an agnostic of everything. Not just deity -- everything. That's not a concept I've been able to successfully explain to very many people, but I think you'll understand what I mean. :-)
no subject
Date: 2004-10-09 10:49 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-09 11:45 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2004-10-11 10:18 am (UTC)The OH is Jewish and atheist/agnostic. He participates in some family rituals not to connect to anything supernatural, but because they are familiar and culturally important to him. So I think the desire for ritual can often be entirely separate from the desire for a spiritual path.
a true scientist cannot be an atheist, for that is an absolute point of view.
I think that's one definition of atheism, but I've heard a number of other definitions that I think are valid. (Let's just say I think the definition is "too black and white.")
Regarding your comments about how too many choices can contribute to negative emotions, there are some interesting books on this being written lately.
However, I don't think our parents had more of life figured out than current generations of young adults do. In my parents' generation, alcohol figured heavily as a way of dealing with the stresses of life. In some cases it worked well, but it doesn't strike me as particularly Buddhist or centered or "just living."