I'm angry.

[rootofnewt]

I am deeply disturbed by homophobic referendums and amendments that have recently been passed. I am not surprised. I do not believe that we will have marriage equality without a Supreme Court decision. Remember Loving v Virginia? People in this country have great pride in living with their heads up their asses. Really, they do. That's why flashlights are so popular.

It took a SCOTUS ruling to strike down anti-miscegenation laws and it will take a SCOTUS ruling to strike down the laws which enforce discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender.

I feel that laws which restrict and define marriage in such narrow terms demean my marriage. I feel that laws which use a religious basis for a legal partnership have no place in this country.

I turned two Mormon boys away from my gate Wednesday night, explaining that I was outraged with the LDS involvement in California politics, The rookie looked confused, the elder elder seemed proud. Whatever.

I don't get folks who honestly believe that civil marriage should be a strictly heterosexual pairing.

A quote from Loving v Virginia:
Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival....

If we're not going to abolish marriage, we need to open it up. Get with it, people. If you have a problem with gay people, it's YOUR problem and I suggest you take a flying fuck at the moon.

Comments

[zephsright.livejournal.com]

coming from a Seattle glbt I'd like to respond to some of what you said:

a) Yeah we're not always good at taking criticism, but when your life is used as a tool by a political party and you are constantly attacked by religious groups...well it's hard to take criticism as anything but opposition.

b) Not sure what is giving you this impression. Personally I think polygamy between consenting adults (as with anything) should be legal too. However I think it is valid to point out that a group that has a tradition of polygamy (though I know the majority don't practice it nowadays) is not in the best position to be pitching a fit about traditional marriage.

c)according to an exit poll 70% of African Americans who voted in this election voted for Prop 8. However they are not the reason it passed. By the numbers there were far more white people, latinos, catholics, protestants, and a bunch of other "groups" that voted in favor of Prop 8. I don't blame the black community, though I am saddened that they do not see the similarities between their past and current struggles and our current struggle.

d) I'd say the Mormon Church single handedly raising $70 million for prop 8 is nothing to sneeze at in addition to telling their congregations to go out and volunteer to fight it (which by the way is very much in violation of tax law and there is a movement to revoke their tax exempt status now...rightfully so in my opinion). They also put out attack ads full of lies about gay marriage meaning their school kids would be taught sex ed and other dumb shit. Make no mistake that any issue like this is passed by the critical mass of religious people and the hysteria they whip up.

e) You're right. There IS a strong surge of hatred coming from gay folks (extremist left or not). We are being denied our rights. We are being attacked. We had rights, but they were snatched away. We're fucking pissed and we're not going to sit quietly by. I don't know if you deserved being called a bigot, but try and have some compassion for our eternal frustration at being continuously shat upon by people who don't understand that their personal discomfort or religious feelings does translate into a valid reason excuse for treating us like second class citizens.

[ashbet]

And not every GLBT person opposes polygamy (as long as it's polygyny AND polyandry -- the Mormon view is that men can take multiple wives, but women can't take multiple husbands. And, yes, I know that the current mainstream Mormon church doesn't openly espouse polygamy because of federal law, but I know quite a few Mormons -- not FLDS, but LDS -- who do practice it quietly, under the radar.)

I have multiple partners who I love. I would absolutely work towards the right to have multiple legal spouses, if the necessary work was done to resolve issues of estates/tax repercussions/child custody law beforehand.

Sing it, krasota!!

-- A <3

[mkay422.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the detailed response!
Just in case, please understand that I am - sort of - foreign; grew up in the USSR, came here in 1994, and my views may not be falling into any typical pattern around here. But I am trying to follow the arguments of different groups - in order to form my (hopefully independent) opinion.

a) I felt that religious groups - in CA, esp. in BAy Area are attacked no less. I mean, both ultra-left and ultra-right deserve criticism.
b) Hmmm, interesting. I recon you imply marginal religious groups (e.g. Texas ranch)? However I thought rather about harem structure - multiple wifes, as in some moslem parts of the world. I don't know if you are aware of this, but during the US Citizenship naturalization proces the 3 major sins are: being a communist, being a terrorist, being a polygamist.
I've seen multiple publications (can dig out the links) where the activists of GLBT clearly declare "2 persons" marriage and strictly object to polygamy.
c) Just as an example - if the black community opposed the 8 as much as they supported Obama, there is no question it would have been rejected.
d) The overall total - i.e. for BOTH sides is just above $60 mil.
Some more detail:
http://seaqwa.com/blogs/qnews/archive/2008/10/25/no-on-prop-8-campaign-gets-influx-of-donations-in-final-weeks-of-fight-for-gay-rights.aspx
As of October 25 - As of Friday, opponents of Proposition 8 have raised $31.2 million, according to official reports, with 34% of the money coming from outside the state. Supporters of the measure had raised $27.5 million, with about 19% of the money coming from outside California.
e) Do you really think that revolutionary measures are the right ones? The campaign methods of stealing the "Yes for 8" off the front yards and assaulting Prop 8 supporters - do you think it would work? (I am just asking).

[zephsright.livejournal.com]

Yeah, no problem. I think calm, informed dialogue is always the best course for these types of issues, despite the passion it stirs in myself and others.

a) This whole situation is a symptom of a larger problem in American politics that has only grown worse after the past eight years. That problem is that the separation of church & state laid down in the constitution is slowly being breached by religious groups. Religious groups have begun lobbying and participating in government to influence policy to conform to their religious beliefs. This becomes a little tricky because individuals belonging to these organizations still have their right to free speech, but the organizations themselves are tax exempt due to their religious nature and are therefor not allowed to lobby, endorse political candidates or measures, and so on.

What this ultimately boils down to are when people (religious or not) think that their opinion should be enforced on the entire country/world. Religious people think gay marriage is wrong. Then they shouldn't have one, but that doesn't mean that they should deny others that right. It's the issues faced by African Americans in the 60's. Just because someone is black doesn't mean they don't deserve full rights as a citizen. Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I should not be allowed to choose the person I wish to be my beneficiary should I die as well as be able to visit me in the hospital or take custody of children we might have. We are entitled to the same rights of other citizens no matter how much those other citizens may not like it.

b) I'm all for granting people more choices and not restricting freedoms. I wasn't thinking of any particular group before (especially not the Texas thing because that was an issue of child abuse, not consenting adults) but I'm sure there are some GLBT groups out there that have come out against polygamy and other kinds of group marriages. GLBT folks aren't perfect...hell, a lot of them flat out suck...but as with Mormons or any other group who want to live non traditionally (including GLBT) it's hypocritical to throw stones.

c)That may be true, but let's look at it this way. I saw a statistic that Prop 8 passed by 420,000 votes. The number of African Americans that voted in favor for it are estimated to be about 700,000. So yes if all the African American voters had swung the other way it would have lost. However, there were also 970,000 latinos that voted for it as well as 432,000 asians. Should I blame them instead? There were also a hell of a lot of white people that voted for it including a lot of catholics. Should I single them out instead of the minorities because they are in the majority? My point is that while it is sadly ironic that the African American vote should go for a very conservative issue that takes away freedoms based on the same arguments used to take away their freedoms in the past while voting for Obama, it is unfair, and possibly kind of racist, to lay the blame solely at their feet. I blame everyone who voted for Prop 8, no matter their race, religion, or creed because they voted in prejudice and fear rather than in justice and fairness. (I make that claim based on my argument under section A in this post)

broken into two posts due to character limit....

[zephsright.livejournal.com]

d) Thank you for getting me some hard numbers. With all the news stories and blog posts flying around the net about this I'm sure misinformation is rampant. What is fact though is that the leadership of the Mormon church sent out a directive to their membership instructing them to donate their time and money to pass Prop 8. That article you linked to says Mormon donations were 40% of the total amount the Yes on Prop 8 camp received. This article ( http://www.sltrib.com/News/ci_10879061 ) puts the total Mormon donations at 19 million, or about 4 out of every 5 dollars by their calculations. Since 4 out of every 5 residents of california aren't Mormons...well that tells me that there is something wrong with that picture. Add to this that it is illegal for the church leadership to directly encourage their members to oppose or support political candidates or measures due to their tax exempt status and you've got a recipe for a Mormon spanking.

e) Stealing campaign signs and assaulting anyone, regardless of their political leanings, is wrong. As far as whether "revolutionary" measures are "the right ones" I can't say. That sentence is loaded with a lot of wording that is easily misinterpreted unless we had a chance to really define what we mean by revolutionary and right. What I will say is that Prop 8 could be considered revolutionary because it was taking away existing rights granted by the highest body of law in the state. It is the role of the supreme court to strike down unjust laws or actions as a balance against the "mob" or the majority trying to oppress a minority. That is one of its functions. So when it is thwarted in such a manner with the monetary and ideological support of religious organizations it makes me feel less free and sad that my fellow americans, in this time of hope and unity, would choose to make their fellow americans less free.