I hope I can find my soap...

[rootofnewt]

Ooof. I've been super achy. My neck and shoulders are killing me. It seems that they're so tight, they should spring loose, like a watch that's overwound. Of course, that would offer some relief, so my body's not about to do it.

I'm going to shower soon. It's been a few days, which is not a good thing in summer. My hair looks gross. Then I'll go buy some mailing envelopes and a CD mailer.

I suddenly smell bleach. How odd.

I'm really frustrated by the homophobia on a list I run. What's the balance between allowing someone to express an opinion yet still providing a safe space for queer members? The list in question is not a queer-issues list of any sort.

And is it wrong that I feel those who have religious objections to homosexuality are narrow-minded? It seems that *I* am being narrow-minded by feeling that... Of course, I also feel they're being hypocrites for being judgmental. Since I don't follow a faith where I'm not supposed to be judgmental, I don't have any qualms judging them as such, except I *DO* feel bad for being judgmental like that. Where the hell did this guilty conscience come from, anyhow?

Comments

[sabethea.livejournal.com]

*hugs, gentle shoulder massage and much empathy*

[red-frog.livejournal.com]

I don't know the circumstances, but IMO nothing about allowing people to voice their opinions precludes me from telling them that their opinions are stupid/misguided/hateful (as applicable).

If you want, stop by when you're out running around and I'll rub your shoulders.

[briskpepper.livejournal.com]

I guess the final statements and questions regarding homophobia are rhetorical, but it's something i tend to feel very deeply about on SEVERAL levels. So i think i'll step up and throw my opinion at you and see what you think.

Firstly... "The List." I dont' know what kind of list it is, aside from knowing it's not a queer-issues list of any sort. So i suggest this.... If it's not intended to be a safe-haven, don't treat it as such. If it's the type of list that allows the expression of opinion, treat it as such. I'm very into "free speech" and things of the like, and i've always fallen back on the age old quote "Freedom of speech doesn't protect the speech we want, it has to protect the speech we don't want." Personal feeling of the victim aside, i think this is a very true statement, unless we end up living in an even MORE facsist environemnt. But as counter-point to this.... it's a private list (or at least privately run, yes?)... so the owner calls the plays. Personally, though i'd tend towards a free speech mentality, and offer my condolences and maybe even a good fist-fight on behalf of the victim(s). Depends on the nature of the list, but just remember... every time a moderation is executed it sets a precedence.

Secondly, the issue of homophobia. Dear god. Some people need to learn to cope. I preach tolerance of everything except intolerance - which i am intolerant of. (hehehe i always thought that concept was funny... ahem.. back to the ranty thing) I'd like to draw a distinction between "homophobia" and "thinking that homosexuality is bad"... though they're sometimes found together, i don't think they're at all the same. Despite the definition you'll find on www.m-w.com that suggests that mere discrimination can define something as a phobia, i maintain that the nature of the word suggests that someone that is homophobic has a problem. a potentially serious problem. A person with a "religious view" that they crusade because they've been taught it since day one, isn't necessarily based on a fear of homosexuality.... so in some sense, the homophobic folks out there have a problem and need help. I have compassion for that aspect of the plea. However, while it is socially progressive and requisitly signifigant to speak out against the things you feel to be wrong, doing so at someone's expense is rarely benificial. Doing so violently has no place, and deafens the ears of those that would listen. It's sad, really, that so many people try to affect change by approaching the situation like a homophobic jock asshole in the locker-room of a high school, and it's sad that so many homophobic assholes, seem to try to affect change externaly, instead of internally where the real problems seem to lie.

damn straight!

[briskpepper.livejournal.com]

Opinions are great that way, as are shoulders!

I had the same feeling...

[bbick.livejournal.com]

I posed the same question to myself a few weeks ago (http://www.livejournal.com/users/bbick/27182.html) on my journal...is it okay to be unaccepting of intolerance?

It's really a tough question. But I think it's okay to voice your objections to these religions' stance on homosexuality as long as you're not assuming that everyone who practices that religion is intolerant. Does that make any sense? For instance, I disagree with a lot of what Catholicism teaches. But I know many Catholics who are very open-minded about homosexuality.

You may not approve of the way that women are treated in much of the Muslim world, but do you hate all Muslims? You may not approve of female circumcision, but do you hate people of African cultures that practice it? That's the difference I think.

I'd love to hear your (and others') thoughts on this!

Re: I had the same feeling...

[briskpepper.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's pretty much my assessment of it all too. In just about every religious dogma (dunno if that's the right word, so i'll just pretend it is) i can usually find a handful of things i detest COMPLETELY, but i don't like the idea of saying "i hate -whatever-"... It sortof raises the question "does the action or belief define the man?" I tend to think it does.

So, i think part of the confusing maybe is in that the muslim analogy is very different from the african analogy. Yes i disapprove of the poor treatment of women, no i don't dislike all muslims. Not all Muslims mistreat women. The african analogy is about people who are certainly practicing something that is assumed to be distasteful... they're different scope i think.

lol, and i have NO idea what female circumcision is.

I think its okay to voice objection to anything if you feel it truly beneficial. I think that's how progress is made. a bunch of people talking about what they think needs to change to make things better.

hahahaha i'm so conflicted sometimes. It's a tough line to negotiate!

[lupa.livejournal.com]

*gentle ministrations for achiness*

and regarding religious objections to anything, three things:

1) i think the majority of religions in general tend towards narrowmindedness (of course unitarians and ba'hai and some others aren't the majority)

2) i believe narrowmindedness is reflected in how objections/opinions are expressed. there's a huge difference between "my religion teaches me that homosexuality is a sin" and "FAGS ARE GOING TO HELL" yadda yadda.

3) i say go ahead and be judgemental! think of it this way: the vast majority of america vehemently believes that queer folk are evil/gross/bad/whathaveyou...one of those who is fierce in the OTHER direction!

[dahliablue.livejournal.com]

*hugs & empathy*
I hope it all blows over soon, I really do.
.

[bbick.livejournal.com]

Boy did I open up a can of worms here. Female circumcision is the removal of part or all of the clitoris. It's still practiced in some African cultures today. A lot of people, especially in the West, see it as barbaric and oppressive to women. It is also indisputably painful, and for many circumcised women sex is less pleasurable and often quite painful as well.

The topic came up a lot in my anthropology classes. I've read a lot of arguments against it, and some are very logical, while others smack of obvious ethnocentrism. It's a touchy issue. What I was saying is that I don't agree with the ritual itself, but I don't hate the people who practice it or see the entire culture as backwards, ignorant, or "primitive" (god I hate that word when applied to cultures).

You can search for more info on Google, but like I said, a lot of the literature out there is very, very biased. I did find one article (http://www.africa2000.com/SNDX/circum.html) that I thought was very insightful.

krasota, sorry to go off on this tangent in your journal here...

[jkatj.livejournal.com]

Yeah, the homo stuff on the list was icky. Not that anyone was overtly horrible. It was mostly, "Love the sinner, hate the sin" crap rather than "I hope you fags burn in hell."

I did pause myself, though, on a similar "am I being a hypocrite" issue. When the person who's been calling out for emotional support said "I'm glad gay sex is illegal" I had to resist telling her that I was revoking any and all support and encouragement I had given her. It was so conflicting. I feel bad for her and all the things she's going through; but if she thinks I don't deserve equal rights, why should I care.

Bah.

But I do care. And I hope things smooth out for her. And I hope she learns to be tolerant of others. If I can be tolerant of her and her religion, she should be able to be tolerant of me. Humpf.