Yeah, no problem. I think calm, informed dialogue is always the best course for these types of issues, despite the passion it stirs in myself and others.
a) This whole situation is a symptom of a larger problem in American politics that has only grown worse after the past eight years. That problem is that the separation of church & state laid down in the constitution is slowly being breached by religious groups. Religious groups have begun lobbying and participating in government to influence policy to conform to their religious beliefs. This becomes a little tricky because individuals belonging to these organizations still have their right to free speech, but the organizations themselves are tax exempt due to their religious nature and are therefor not allowed to lobby, endorse political candidates or measures, and so on.
What this ultimately boils down to are when people (religious or not) think that their opinion should be enforced on the entire country/world. Religious people think gay marriage is wrong. Then they shouldn't have one, but that doesn't mean that they should deny others that right. It's the issues faced by African Americans in the 60's. Just because someone is black doesn't mean they don't deserve full rights as a citizen. Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I should not be allowed to choose the person I wish to be my beneficiary should I die as well as be able to visit me in the hospital or take custody of children we might have. We are entitled to the same rights of other citizens no matter how much those other citizens may not like it.
b) I'm all for granting people more choices and not restricting freedoms. I wasn't thinking of any particular group before (especially not the Texas thing because that was an issue of child abuse, not consenting adults) but I'm sure there are some GLBT groups out there that have come out against polygamy and other kinds of group marriages. GLBT folks aren't perfect...hell, a lot of them flat out suck...but as with Mormons or any other group who want to live non traditionally (including GLBT) it's hypocritical to throw stones.
c)That may be true, but let's look at it this way. I saw a statistic that Prop 8 passed by 420,000 votes. The number of African Americans that voted in favor for it are estimated to be about 700,000. So yes if all the African American voters had swung the other way it would have lost. However, there were also 970,000 latinos that voted for it as well as 432,000 asians. Should I blame them instead? There were also a hell of a lot of white people that voted for it including a lot of catholics. Should I single them out instead of the minorities because they are in the majority? My point is that while it is sadly ironic that the African American vote should go for a very conservative issue that takes away freedoms based on the same arguments used to take away their freedoms in the past while voting for Obama, it is unfair, and possibly kind of racist, to lay the blame solely at their feet. I blame everyone who voted for Prop 8, no matter their race, religion, or creed because they voted in prejudice and fear rather than in justice and fairness. (I make that claim based on my argument under section A in this post)
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Date: 2008-11-09 05:03 pm (UTC)a) This whole situation is a symptom of a larger problem in American politics that has only grown worse after the past eight years. That problem is that the separation of church & state laid down in the constitution is slowly being breached by religious groups. Religious groups have begun lobbying and participating in government to influence policy to conform to their religious beliefs. This becomes a little tricky because individuals belonging to these organizations still have their right to free speech, but the organizations themselves are tax exempt due to their religious nature and are therefor not allowed to lobby, endorse political candidates or measures, and so on.
What this ultimately boils down to are when people (religious or not) think that their opinion should be enforced on the entire country/world. Religious people think gay marriage is wrong. Then they shouldn't have one, but that doesn't mean that they should deny others that right. It's the issues faced by African Americans in the 60's. Just because someone is black doesn't mean they don't deserve full rights as a citizen. Just because I'm gay doesn't mean I should not be allowed to choose the person I wish to be my beneficiary should I die as well as be able to visit me in the hospital or take custody of children we might have. We are entitled to the same rights of other citizens no matter how much those other citizens may not like it.
b) I'm all for granting people more choices and not restricting freedoms. I wasn't thinking of any particular group before (especially not the Texas thing because that was an issue of child abuse, not consenting adults) but I'm sure there are some GLBT groups out there that have come out against polygamy and other kinds of group marriages. GLBT folks aren't perfect...hell, a lot of them flat out suck...but as with Mormons or any other group who want to live non traditionally (including GLBT) it's hypocritical to throw stones.
c)That may be true, but let's look at it this way. I saw a statistic that Prop 8 passed by 420,000 votes. The number of African Americans that voted in favor for it are estimated to be about 700,000. So yes if all the African American voters had swung the other way it would have lost. However, there were also 970,000 latinos that voted for it as well as 432,000 asians. Should I blame them instead? There were also a hell of a lot of white people that voted for it including a lot of catholics. Should I single them out instead of the minorities because they are in the majority? My point is that while it is sadly ironic that the African American vote should go for a very conservative issue that takes away freedoms based on the same arguments used to take away their freedoms in the past while voting for Obama, it is unfair, and possibly kind of racist, to lay the blame solely at their feet. I blame everyone who voted for Prop 8, no matter their race, religion, or creed because they voted in prejudice and fear rather than in justice and fairness. (I make that claim based on my argument under section A in this post)